Transcript Of Dixie Carter’s Interview With House Committee

http://www.ewrestlingnews.com/stories/Full_Transcript_Of_Dixie_Carters_Interview_Wi.shtml

Full Transcript Of Dixie Carter’s Interview With Government Officials



Reported by: Ryan Clark



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Here is a transcript of an interview government officials conducted with TNA president Dixie Carter on Thursday, December 6, 2007 largely regarding steroid use in her company as well as professional wrestling. Carter also goes into great detail on the behind the scenes aspects of TNA.

You can also read the interview in PDF file form at the following link.

Mr. Cohen. This is an interview of Dixie Carter



conducted by the house committee on oversight and government



reform. This interview is part of the committee’s



investigations into the use of performance enhancing drugs



in professional wrestling.



Mr. Cohen. Ms. Carter, can you please state your full



name for the record.



Ms. Carter. Dixie Carter Salinas.



Mr. Cohen. My name is Brian Cohen. I’m a member of



the majority staff. Ms. Carter, you’re represented by



counsel. Can your counsel state your full names for the



record as well?



Mr. Cacheris. Plato Cacheris and John Hundley



representing Ms. Carter.



Mr. Cohen. Let’s have the other people in the room



identify themselves as well.



Ms. Despres. Sarah Despres with the majority staff.



Mr. Buffone. Sam Buffone, majority staff.



Ms. Safavian. Jennifer Safavian, Republican staff.



Mr. Chance. Benjamin Chance, Republican staff.



Mr. Cohen. Before beginning, I have a few standard



instructions and explanations regarding the interview to go



over. The reporter will be recording everything you say and



will make a written record of the interview. As you give



answers, please give verbal, audible answers because the



reporter obviously cannot record nods or gestures. I’m



going to ask you questions on a particular subject matter.



When I finish my questions on a specific matter, I’ll turn



to my colleagues and ask them if they have any additional



questions. We’ll make every effort not to take up any more



of your time than we need to collect the information that we



need. If you need a break at any time, please let us know



and we can step out and take a couple of minutes to rest and



relax. This is not a deposition. So you’ll not be placed



under oath. You’re required by law, however, to answer



4



questions from Congress truthfully. Is there any reason



you’re unable to provide truthful answers in today’s



hearing.



Ms. Carter. Absolutely not.



Mr. Cacheris. I understand we’ll be given a copy -­access



to the transcript to review when it is completed?



Mr. Cohen. Correct. You’ll be invited in — it is



usually 2 or 3 days?



Mr. Buffone. Within a week.



Mr. Cohen. Within a week or so, we’ll have the



transcript and we’ll invite you in to review it. You can’t



take it with you or make copies, but you can review it and



make any changes.



Mr. Cacheris. We will probably do it after, the



holidays if you don’t mind, Brian.



5



Mr. Cohen. I think that will work okay.



Mr. Cacheris. That will work, won’t it?



Mr. Cohen.



Mr. Cohen.



I’m almost certain it will.



I will be asking questions about several



Do you have any questions



specific documents during today’s interview. I’ll ask that



as we ask those questions, we also put those documents into



the official transcript record.



before we begin?



Ms. Carter. No, sir.



Mr. Cacheris. What is the confidentiality of this



transcript, Brian? It is obviously shared with all of you



and your members, I guess.



Mr. Cohen. We as a committee, we always have the



the committee always has the right to make these kind of



interviews public. In this case, that is decided pursuant



to committee rules. In this case, we have not made any



decision.



Mr. Cacheris. No decision?



Mr. Cohen. That’s correct.



Mr. Cacheris. Okay. All right.



EXAMINATION



BY MR. COHEN:



Q All right. We’ll begin by asking some background



questions about TNA wrestling and your role at TNA. First,



6



please state your current position for the record.



A I’m currently President of TNA wrestling.



Q And what are your responsibilities in that position?



A I’m ultimately responsible for everything that



happens within the company.



Q How long have you been TNA president?



A I’ve been president since the spring of 2003.



Q And can you briefly describe your professional



experience prior to your current job with TNA?



A Prior to TNA wrestling, I owned my own company in



Nashville and moved there at 26 years old and started my own



company in the music business and entertainment business and



represented a variety of different music acts and worked in



the motion picture industry some and represented a few



athletes as well mostly in the marketing, PR and promotions



side of the industry. But right before this, I was doing



management, artist management as well.



Q Okay. If you could just give us a little slightly



description of your roles and your day-to-day



responsibilities within TNA.



A I was first brought in I was offered the



opportunity to take a meeting with TNA wrestling, and quite



honestly, I was not a fan of current wrestling products, but



I knew it was a big business and so I took the meeting



anyway, and was very impressed with the people that were



there and it seemed completely out of character from what my



perception of the business was. And I took on TNA wrestling



as a client and I handled their marketing, PR and promotions



when I first started the company. It was a very, very small



served, funded company and they lost its funding weeks after



its first show quite honestly, and people only gave them



weeks to survive anyway.



So it was right on time. And then I helped them find



an investor which happened to be my family’s company out of



Dallas. It is an energy company and it was a completely



nonstrategic investment for them but they felt like, you



know, there was only one competitor in the industry and that



there was an opportunity there. And so I continued on in



that same role until the spring of 2003 when I was — I



moved into the presidency.



Q Okay. Can you walk us through the organizational



structure of TNA Wrestling?



A Currently?



Q Uh-huh.



A Currently we finally had some dollars to hire some



people to do some stuff. We have the company is — it



centers around the creative process. It is — really, we’re



scripted television. And up until just recently and in our



future plans for 2008, we’ve done nothing but be a



television production company. We didn’t tour. We held, on



7



8



average, three shows a month all for television purposes.



So under that, the biggest part of our group would be the



creative guys who write and script the television show. And



then we have the production company who — you know, the



director, the producers and the truck and then those people.



And these are all just day workers for us. But we do have a



production crew that comes in on day of show.



And we have very no, like, up until recently, one PR



person, one marketing person that we just hired earlier this



year. We have a licensing — two people in licensing. We



do our toys through Marvel, which does Spiderman and the



Incredible Hulk. We have a video coming out in May of ‘0S



with Midway. So that is a division that has grown with us



through our television exposure. Then — excuse me, one



more, International. We take our domestic television show



and then we license it internationally as well.



Q Okay. Can you describe the employment relationship



between



A The what relationship?



Q The employment relationship between your talent -­I’m



going to ask this question in two parts. First, your



creative talent. Is your creative talent, are they



full-time staff or are they brought in on a —



A No. They are all independent contractors, but we do



have a contract with them. Up until just recently, our



9



talent — when we first started, they were on literally four



weeks at a time and we only had a few of them because we



didn’t know how long we were going to stay in business. And



then we signed more. But because we only worked with



them if every single guy was on every show which would



never happen anyway, the most they could work would be 36



times a year with us which was on average three times a



month. But we did have them under contract just where they



could not go work for the only competitor that we would care



about, which would be the WWE, but we allowed them — there



is a multitude of other organizations, domestically and



internationally, wrestling companies that they also worked



for.



Q Okay. So to clarify, the employment relationship



between the wrestling talent and TNA, the wrestlers are



considered independent contractors?



A Correct.



Q But there is contractual provisions that -­A



Just to prevent them from WWE.



Q And allow them to work with any other organization?



A Correct.



Q How many wrestlers do you currently have under



contract?



A Currently we have between 50 and 60. We just signed



a big two-hour television agreement with Spike TV which is



the biggest milestone in our companies history. So we have



10



just recently acquired more talent to be able to fill from



one hour to two hours worth of programming.



Q And what is the typical length of contract between



TNA and its wrestlers?



A There is not one set one, but it is as least — we



try to on ones we would like to have longer relationships



with, I belieye it is one year with two one-year options.



Some of them are under contract as show to show.



Q I was going to say, are there short-term contracts



as well?



A Very much so, yes, sir.



Q Okay. And can you give us a sense of the pay



structure for your talent? What are wrestlers typically



paid and what is the range of salaries for your wrestlers?



A This is the confidential part, but — the



confidential part, but



Mr. Cacheris. She feels it is confidential. So



I don’t think we’re asking for any



she’ll tell you to answer your question.



Ms. Carter. I have no problem you knowing, but just



the average wrestling fan.



Ms. Safavian.



names of individuals.



Ms. Carter. No, but they’ll know. They’ll start off



at



11



BY MR. COHEN:



Q To clarify — before you answer this question, I’ll



again reiterate what I told you at the beginning. The



committee always reserves the right to make this material



public. Of course, we’ll take your considerations into



account as we go through those deliberations.



A They are usually paid in — between — I’d say 90



percent of our talent are paid



~per show. There are a few exceptions that are paid



more than that, but that is the solid range.



Q Okay. And



A And they’re paid per appearance.



Q I was going to say the basis is per appearance.



A So it is not a lot of money. That’s why we — you



know, they do work outside as well.



Q Okay. You had started to go over this a little bit.



Can you walk us through TNA’s current schedule, how you’re



schedule is set up?



A Yes, absolutely. Up until October 4th, we had a



one-hour show on Spike TV, and we deliver a 1 hour



pay-per-view every month to, like, In-Demand and Direct TV



and DISH, where you pay $29 to get the show. On Spike TV,



when we had one show, because we were operating in the red,



we were taping two shows a day. We film at Universal



Studios in Orlando. We were taping two shows a day. So we



12



would film two l-hour shows. When we went to the 2-hour



format on October 4th, we couldn’t do 4 hours of taping in



one day. So now we do if we have a pay-per-view, it is



Sunday and then we’ll tape Monday, Tuesday. So they go to



Orlando and we’ll tape Sunday, Monday, Tuesday there. And



then we’ll wait 2 weeks and then come back Monday, Tuesday.



That’s on average what we do.



Q So how many shows — yoqr typical wrestler, how many



;. > â¢â¢â¢â¢,,_. I



s1′ Ira lIiflill they do in a given year?



A For us?



Q Uh-huh.



A The most they can do if they are on every single



show and very few are on every single show would be 64 now.



Ms. Despres. A year?



Ms. Carter. Yes, ma’am.



BY MR. COHEN:



Q And typically on a given show what — how many



wrestlers I guess it is changing a little bit because you



are going to 2 hours. But say a 2-hour show — now you’ve



got 50 to 60 on a contract. A typical 2-hour show, how may



wrestlers will YQu use?



A A typical 2-hour show, you might have as many as 40,



maybe a few more on the show where half of them or more than



half may not wrestle, but they’d be used in the scripted



story lines to further character development and things such



13



as that.



Q Okay. What is TNA’s annual revenue?



A This year we should do — it would be $15 million.



And I would like to check that number. I’m not —



Q And can you walk us through the sources of that



revenue?



A Absolutely.



Q Just in a general sense giving us how much they



cog~ribute to the company?



A Absolutely. The licensing fee from Spike is a



majority of that. We have pay-per-view licensing and



international licensing and then we have merchandise and toy



sales and things such as that. And the first three would be



the majority of our income, you know, pretty much evenly



split. Maybe a little more in television rights.



Q Okay. And you’ve got no Live Gate component of your



revenue? It is



A Well, we’ve toured so few times, what we’d call a



house show, which is a nontelevised show. It is something



we want to do. Up until this point, we have been mostly a



television production company, but we want to get out there



and start touring. But you have to create the demand first.



It is a very expensive business. So our goal in 2008 is to



tour. And we have tested the waters in a few markets this



year before we get out there next.



14



Q Okay. And with regard to your television ratings,



what is TNA’s prime demographic?



A We hope our prime demographic is men 18 to 34, but



men 18 to 49 is really what Spike TV is looking for and what



we have a tendency to deliver the highest demo in.



Q Okay. Are adolescent males and adolescents in



general an important demographic for TNA?



A They are not at all to the network. Really they



just look at that 18 to 49, really 25 to 34 is their key



demo that they’re going after, you know. But to us, we’re



kind of — we call ourselves Shakespeare to the masses. So



it is really — you know, we pride ourselves on being a



family friendly show. So we’re trying to get the



grandparents back to bringing their children. Where, you



know, I would not let my children watch other product



necessarily, we try to make it where, you know, it appeals



to all ages.



Q How do you do that? What is your — how would you



describe the differences between say the WWE show and a TNA



show?



A The pay-per-views have a rating of a TV 14. So your



pay-per-views have a tendency to go a little bit more, be a



little bit more violent in like a brutal type of match, like



a cage match or you’ll see things such as that. But on



television, we bleep out our language. We film at Universal



15



Studios. We are a park attraction. So if that gives you



any kind of guidelines of what we have to follow, that is



pretty much — that sums it up to me. It is us and Shrek



and Dora and Twister. So there is a little of everything in



there.



Mr. Cohen. I’m done with this set. Anybody else have



anything you want to add?



EXAMINATION



BY MS. DESPRES:



Q Can I just go back to the demographics? One of your



sources of revenue are toys?



A Uh-huh.



Q Can you describe what kind of?



A It is mostly collectibles, action figures. And I



don’t know if any of the men around this table admit to



having any. But it is really — it is more in the



collectible side where guys keep the toys and they keep them



in their boxes and then they increase in value and things



such as that. They’re not as much, you know, play toys as



more collectible items.



Q And who is the target audience for those items?



A Well, collectibles are a much older demographic. I



mean, they are probably — I mean, they are more grown men.



I mean, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s even. Have you seen the



40-Year-Old Virgin with that man that has all the toys? I



16



mean, that is kind of — that’s our audience.



Q And what is the pr~ce point for those?



A It just depends. Some are, like, 9.99 and some get



up to $29. They are not real expensive because they collect



in mass. I mean, those that collect have a tendency to get



everything that is out there.



BY MR. COHEN:



Q Do you know what percentage of your viewership is in



the 13 to 18 or



A It would be 12 to 17.



Q Approximately?



A 10, 15 percent. And I’d really have to go back and



check viewership. But I know that a majority of our ratings



are 18 to 49. Actually our median age on our show since we



started two hours I think is 39 years old. And that



fluctuates each week a little bit especially since we’re



newer. Once it gets into more months, it will stay within a



year or two.



Mr. Cohen. Okay.



Ms. Safavian. I don’t have anything.



Mr. Chance. Nothing.



Mr. Cohen. All right. Next set questions is going



to be on TNA’s hiring practices.



Ms. Carter. Hiring, okay.



BY MR. COHEN:



17



Q How do you recruit talent for TNA?



A How do we recruit talent? There is a finite group



of wrestlers that are out there. A majority of them work



for the industry leader, obviously WWE. So you have two



options when you’re a company such as ours and that is to go



over who is not currently under contract with them or to



find new talent. And developing new talent does not



obviously sell. You know, it is not real popular and it is



not going to draw your ratings and it takes a while to



develop. So now that we have hit our 5th year mark, we



finally have a group of TNA talent that have started to gain



in popularity. Most of them are in their late 20s, early



30s. We do have several other talent that have had



especially early on in our days prior to me being president,



just whoever was out there and available. And most



eveiybody with a name has worked at a former organization



whether it be WCW, which is no longer in business or WWF or



WWE.



Q Do you — just to clarify. You’ve got your stable



of talent, the talent you mentioned that has been there for



five years and it is starting to get its name. Those



were that group came from —



A The new guys?



Q Yeah. Those were — you hired those



independently —



18



A People that we heard about on the independent



circuit, somebody who happened to see somebody on a small



show. And When I say small, it could be anywhere from 150



to 500 people at a bingo hall, a K.C. hall, something along



those lines. But they’re standouts. I mean, our guy that



we have now came from one of our top guys who will win



the heavyweight belt, it will be one of our first big



made — our own talent. He — you know, we heard about him



up in the ring of honor circuit up in Philadelphia. And you



know here is a guy and he is big, and I don’t mean muscular



big, I just mean big and he moves like lightning and he is



really great and you should check him out.



So we’d bring him in for a dark match, which means it



is nontelevised put on before we go on to air just to see



how he does in the ring in front of people. And then you



give him a shot at losing on a show for a couple of times



and then just see if they work. But the people who write



the show and our director of talent relations, between them,



they know every single wrestler personally that is out



there. Because it is not that many people. So they’ve



either worked with them in the past or have heard of them or



know somebody who has.



Q Okay. And your second group of those that you have



brought in that have worked for



A Other organizations.



19



Q Other large organizations, what percent of your



talent has come from other organizations?



A Right now — this would be a guess without sitting



in front of a talent roster — 50/50.



Q Okay. And what kind —



A Which is something we’re proud of because, I mean,



we finally have gotten to a point where we can have that



many of our own guys on the show.



Q What is turnover like? I mean, how typical — a



typical year, how many of your — how much of your talent



turn over?



A They don’t quit, you know, because they’re under



contract. They — it would just be if a character or a



story line is not working out. We still have a lot of guys



on our roster from the very first show. But there have been



a lot that came on, especially in those early days from my



understanding that just, you know, didn’t have the talent,



didn’t work out, had — a lot of these guys have a lot of



baggage from pre-existing relationships with other companies



and didn’t fit the mold.



Q Okay. You had mentioned the baggage that some of



your wrestlers bring. I think in the context of that kind



of baggage, can you walk us through — when you’re



considering whether to contract with a specific wrestler,



what kind of factors do you take into consideration? How is



20



that decision made?



A Talent is very important. You know, we are about



quality in the ring. Ours is not as much about, like, story



lines and — I mean, we do have story lines and character



development, but it is not the — the focus is not on that.



Ours is mostly on the in-ring action. So they have to be —



you know, they have to be good wrestlers. They have to have



a reputation of being easy to work with. We — having a



talent — I mean, if you get 50 men in a room and a few



women in a room at any time, it is hard and you want a happy



environment, it is a challenge, especially when, you know,



these guys have big egos and the whole thing. And we have



from the very beginning made this kind of our law, that this



is a team, you may consider it an individual sport, it is a



team and you have to have the attitude of such. And then



secondly, you know, where they are at. I mean, we have a



lot of guys on our roster who are former addicts, you know,



who have been addicted to pain medicine for obvious reasons.



And some who have had substance abuse problems in the past,



alcohol and, you know, who have cleaned up their lives and



they are now in a different part of their life and are with



us now. So we do consider, like, everything about them.



Q Okay. I was going to say specifically, do you



provide guidance to your talent scouts regarding wrestlers



who have known or suspected drug problems?



21



A I don’t personally, because I don’t know them



personally. But they know. I mean, it is one of those



it is an industry and it is a very unique industry. I don’t



come from this industry. I have not been a part of it very



long. It is an extremely unique industry. These people



know everything about everybody. And probably, because some



of them I — even employees worked with them at times when



they knew what they were going through, or things such as



that. So they are very aware.



Q And do you provide any guidance to your talent



scouts that some of these issues may be red flags?



A Absolutely. We don’t hire anybody who has a



problem. And — but we do hire people who are in remission,



you know, or who have gone through therapy and have cleaned



up their lives and, you know —



Q And how do you determine that they are — that



they’re clean?



A Well, we’ve not tested them prior to them coming in.



But we do know, you know. And we do know because these



people have either been best friends with them for 10 years,



15 years and they don’t hide it. You know what I’m saying?



I mean, if people know that this person, you know, has been



on the record of doing drugs and quit for years leading up



to it or whatever.



Q What about steroids in particular? Do you provide



22



talent any — I ask this question — steroids — to the



extent someone has a problem with cocaine or painkillers,



that is something that I think you’re right, it can often be



an open secret.



A Very much so.



Q And people know about it. Individuals who are



taking steroids, they can be highly functional. It is not



like someone who has an addiction to different drugs. How



do you — do you provide any specific guidance with regard



to wrestlers who may be using steroids?



A In our drug policy, it says there is no steroid



you know, steroids would be coupled under prescription



medicine prescribed not by an appropriate physician.



Q Right.



A So that would fall under that. But you’re right, I



mean, that is the case. I mean, they would be fully



functioning. I think the look of a wrestler is your number



one ability to be able to look at somebody and tell. Our



talent — I brought them a few pictures. I don’t know if



you’d want me to show them.



Mr. Cacheris. Not now.



Ms. Carter. But our talent is they just look



different. You know what I’m saying? I have never and



would never and I profess to tell everybody that, you know,



we just want healthy, clean athletes. We don’t want



23



anything else. And you do not have to look like a cartoon



character. As a matter of fact, that does not fit our mold



for our company. And, you know, they — so that’s pretty



much the case.



BY MR. COHEN:



Q And again, I don’t want to harp on this issue over



again. Do you provide any specific — do you — that kind



of explanation you just provided me, do you provide that



kind of explanation or guidance to your talent scouts?



A Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I have people who



have been on steroids in the past, some for extended periods



of time, some to the point where they have no testosterone



in their body at all now. They can’t have children now.



They have a variety of medical issues that this has caused.



And not only has my director of talent relations but I’ve



had direct conversations with these people saying this is



not tolerated, it is not expected in this company, we want



you to be around when you’re 70, 80 years old. I know you,



your family, your little kids and you need to make sure that



you’re under proper care and that you’re completely taken



care of.



Q To the extent that — again, you mentioned the look



being a big tip. To the extent that one of your talent



scouts or anyone else with any organization has a suspicion



that a wrestler may be using steroids, do you instruct the



24



talent to inform TNA management as they — to the extent



they provide a recommendation regarding picking up that



particular wrestler?



A Absolutely. It is called — the juice is what they



call it. And they — or the gas, or I think that is the



other name that they typically call that. And — like I



said, they — like this guy is on the gas, this guy is on



the juice. You know, you wouldn’t want him, he is — that



is not who you’d want.



Q So you have had those specific conversations?



A Absolutely.



Q Do your talent scouts provide written



recommendations or —



A No.



Q — suggestions for particular individuals?



A No.



Q It is all by word of mouth?



A It is — I mean, the creative committee will call



and say — you know, either the talent relations man will



come to creative and say these wrestlers are available or



they’ve shown an interest in working here or the creative



group that writes the shows will go to him and say, hey, we



are interested in bringing in so and so. Within the last



6 months, we had a concern that there were two people that



creative wanted to bring in, that we did not have a



25



knowledge of them, we did not have that personal, you know,



working, personal relationship with them and wound up not



bringing in one, brought in the other and we could tell -­we



didn’t even need to test. We could tell right away that



he was not — would not fit the mold and would not be able



to pass a test. And he was not invited back after that



time. It was a one-time offer to come in.



Q I see. Okay. That’s actually a little bit to my



next question. To the extent that there may be questions or



rumors about a particular talent you’re considering or your



talent scouts have indicated that they have suspicions, do



you conduct background checks or any other independent



investigations that might provide insight into a particular



wrestler’s drug use?



A What we’re starting to do is if there is any doubt



on a wrestler, even if we feel like we know the situation,



we are going to go — we are in a position now where we’re



able to do it. We’re going to test regardless. We’re not



just going to test anybody that comes in if there is no



suspicion or doubt just to screen.



Q Those are future plans?



A Yes, correct. Actually we already have been doing



that this summer, looking at people that we’d bring in.



Actually there was a couple that we were going bring in that



we said there would be testing and they wound up not coming



26



in.



Q So you started testing, screening this summer?



A No. We planned on it. We started talking about it



and we even — when there were a couple of new talent that



we told if you were going to come in, we’d conduct a test in



advance. Creative — one didn’t write one into it and the



other one ended up going to Mexico instead, which could have



been our answer right there.



Q Okay. Have you ever with regard to WWE talent that



comes into the — that comes into TNA, have you ever do



you ask WWE if they’ve ever tested positive for drug use or



if those wrestlers might have a drug problem?



A No. It is all public knowledge. We don’t talk to



the WWE. But it is public knowledge who is, you know, not



failed who has failed a drug policy — a drug test.



Excuse me. There was one talent in particular that had a



history of it. I don’t know if they were ever, you know,



under — I don’t know if WWE even had a drug policy back



then. And it was a very famous charismatic guy, he had



people, you know — he knew everybody in our organization,



he had been clean for over a year. This was all street



drugs. He came in and was great for a long period of time



and stumbled. And we had to suspend him and then we let him



go. He never came back and worked for us again. Absolute



right thing to do. Painful for when you don’t have any



27



stars and you need one, but we didn’t even question it.



Q Okay. When talent is hired at the time of hiring,



for example, do you provide any education on the risk of



drug use in general and steroid use in particular?



A Not at this we have not. We have just instituted



about a year and a half ago a talent handbook that has some



information in there. We are going to be — you know,



steroids, we do not believe, is a big problem within our



company. But regardless of that, we are trying to start



providing steroid — not just that, but preventive medicine.



We have started doing seminars on financial planning. I’ve



got guys who have made millions of dollars in their lives



who now don’t have a penny to get to the next week. So



there is a variety of when I say baggage that comes with



this, it is far beyond drugs. It is, you know, not knowing



how to manage your money, depression, bodies broken down and



things such as that.



Q Okay. You’ve been pretty open regarding the fact



that you have hired wrestlers with known or suspected drug



abuse problems. Is it —



A In their past, correct.



Q In their past?



A Absolutely.



Q If you’re considering a wrestler with a known or



suspected drug abuse problem, is the hiring process any



28



different for those wrestlers than those with no known



history of drug use?



A Well, the only difference would be that there is a



conversation that happens with them that says there is no



tolerance here and it will not be allowed and we expect you



to keep, you know, the good work that you have done. I



mean, honestly we are a company where we have tried to give



people second chances because it is — you know, it is a



very different type of company. I mean, we were trying to



let wrestlers know — we’ve got a guy currently right now



who was an alcoholic for many years and was sober for 4 or 5



and started drinking within the last two months. He was



sent home immediately and told that his health and the



health of his wrestlers was more important to us than



anything and he’d be paid and his job is secure but he has



to get help before he can come back.



Mr. Cohen. Okay. I’m going to — before I get to the



next set, I’ll send it around and ask if anyone has any



issues they want to raise.



Mr. Buffone. I want to clarify something.



EXAMINATION



BY MR. BUFFONE:



Q You said — would any competent scout should be able



to know the wrestling — the wrestler they’re recommending,



they should know whether or not they’re using illicit drugs?



29



Is that your opinion?



A They absolutely should be able to know that.



Q And they should be able to know if they’re addicted



to painkillers?



A They should know that.



Q And they shou}d be able to know if they use



steroids?



A They would probably know that.



Q So most any wrestling scout should be able to -­A



Not just him personally. It’s not like you can



expect one guy to have all of that magic information. That



would be absolutely incorrect information. What it is is



you’d go and talk to that person’s best friend, you would



talk to the guy he has traveling with and you talk to other



people who have been in that organization with him. You



probably know family members that you’d consult with. But



he is responsible for finding and culling all of that



information together. But he himself would not know it.



Q But in the normal background check, that would go



into any scout recruiting new talent, they should be able to



find all that information and should know that before they



would come and make the recommendation to TNA?



A Yes.



Q Whether or not that talent has that problem?



A Uh-huh. Correct.



30



Q Thank you.



BY MR. COHEN:



Q And to clarify, it sounds like you rely solely upon



the information obtained by those talent scouts?



A Up until this time prior to hiring, correct. And in



the future, like I said, if there is reasonable doubt, we’ll



do something. But if there is no reasonable doubt, there is



no — we don’t believe there is any reason to test prior to



hiring.



Q Okay.



Mr. Cohen. Do you guys have anything else?



Mr. Chance. You had mentioned in the beginning looking



for talent. Was there any kind of perception that TNA might



become sort of a safe haven for those have been else where,



to come and work



Ms. Carter. I think it is the exact opposite. I think



it is — we run a very tight close-knit ship. We run only a



few shows a month and we keep a very, very tight leash on



people. One little incident and people have been sent home,



suspended or fired. And so I think it is the exact



opposite.



BY MR. COHEN:



Q For the next round of questions, I’m going to



present you with an August 9, 2007 e-mail from Andy Barton



to you. This is we’ll mark this as Exhibit 1. I’ll mark



31



it for you.



[Carter Exhibit No. 1



was marked for identification.]



BY MR. COHEN:



Q Take a minute to review it.



A I know it.



Q Who is Andy Barton and what is his responsibility at



TNA?



A Andy is our senior vice president. He is



responsible for licensing and international television



distribution and has been I worked with him for many



years leading up to this, so he is somebody I have most



trust in and he has helped me research a lot on drug policy



and other companies’ drug policies and things such as that.



Q Okay. The e-mail refers to Terry. In reference to



Terry, Mr. Barton writes, is his main job facilitating



creative by getting talent creative wants on the TNA roster



who do not — I’m sorry. Let me start this again. In



reference to Terry, Mr. Barton writes is his main job



facilitating creative by getting talent creative wants on



the TNA roster who do or might have drug problems or is his



first obligation to tell you and Dean that a talent creative



wants has a drug problem and we either shouldn’t bring them



in or test them in a meaningful way prior to his joining of



the roster? Who is Terry and what is his responsibility at



32



TNA?



A Terry Taylor is director of talent relations. And



this was the incident I actually referred to earlier from



this summer when there were two talent that creative said



that they’d like to bring in or needed for a show. And



one — there was a concern about one person because of his



physical look and we did not have anybody — you know, we



just had no history, knowledge, no one had worked with him



and he didn’t know anything about him except the judgment



that he was passing. The other one had a known substance



abuse problems. We wound up not even attempting to bring



him in. The other person is the one that we brought in and



could just tell by looking at him since no one had seen him



in a period of time that he did not fit what we’d want in



that company and he was let go.



Q Okay.



A He wasn’t really let go because he was never hired



but he was not invited back after that show.



Q Okay. And the Dean in that e-mail is



A Dean is Dean Broadhead, and he is our CEO. What



Andy was bringing to my attention was the system that should



be.



Q Okay. Did you reply to Mr. Barton’s e-mail?



A I was on vacation when he sent it. So I probably



called him back. And it wound up being that the one guy



33



didn’t come in and we said we’ll make a determination, you



know, once we can see this guy and we did.



Q Okay. And did you reply to the specific question,



to clarify the nature of Terry’s jqb?



A Absolutely. That’s why he is asking that, is that



should he have just — because talent wants somebody, you



know, should he — if he doesn’t know that background with



them, is he to do it anyway? And Andy was being — Andy is



our — our police dog when it comes to this issue. So he is



being maybe a little — I don’t know if flippant is the



right word. But he was trying to let me know that if



creative wants somebody who has by any chance some kind of



baggage if we don’t have the ability to test them out,



what do we do.



Q Did you follow up on this e-mail in any other way?



A Well, one of the guys, like I said, we never invited



in. And the other guy came for us to see him. And after



that one appearance, he was no longer there.



Q Were you concerned Mr. Barton in that e-mail



makes reference to confusion within — is sounds like to



some confusion within — among individuals who are lower in



the organization about where the organization should stand



with regard to drug use. Were you concerned that this



confusion existed?



A No. The problem lies with the head of talent,



34



creative Jeff Jarrett, not — and Terry Taylor not being -­Terry



is not his favorite person. He thinks he is — you



know, he is not a good agent on the show, he is laying out



matches and things like that. So Terry is in essence scared



of Jeff and I think he didn’t know in this situation -­since



creative wanted him and he didn’t have the ability to



give him an answer of what he should do.



Q Okay. Do you know if Mr. Barton provided an answer



to Mr. Taylor about his concerns, a specific answer



regarding —



A I believe it is the same thing I communicated to



Andy. And at this point on August 9th, we had testing set



up for steroids and drugs for September 10th. And if they



were going to stay, they would be subjected to the testing



within four weeks. So we knew that that was happening as



well.



Mr. Cohen. Sam or Sarah, do you want to ask anything



about this particular e-mail?



Ms. Safavian. Can I just follow up on what you



mentioned about the testing that was beginning on September



10th?



EXAMINATION



BY MS. SAFAVIAN:



Q Did it happen?



A No, it didn’t. We did it in advance of receiving



35



the letter from the committees and then were advised that we



should just hold off on the testing in case we were given



certain provisions that we’d need to provide. So we were



told just to hold off until we heard back from Congress in



case there were certain things that we needed to do



differently.



Q With regard to your testing?



A With regard to testing, correct.



Q Had you notified the talent that there was going to



be this testing on September 10th?



A Uh-huh.



Q So they were all aware that within a few weeks you



were going to have the testing done?



A We set it up through — we have an orthopedic



surgeon on staff with us at every show and he had set it up



through a hospital in Florida.



Q What did you end up telling the talent when you



cancelled the testing?



A That it was just being postponed.



Q Was a new date ever scheduled?



A Well, we didn’t hear back for me to come in and -­until



just within the last week or two, I guess, when this



offer — when I was asked to come in. So we went ahead and



just decided we couldn’t wait. So we were just going to



schedule it within January.



36



Q So it is next month?



A Yeah. We just decided to go ahead and not wait and



if it wasn’t right, then we’d redo it and fix it later.



Q And did you notify the talent about the new testing



date?



A I don’t know if they’ve been told or not yet.



BY MR. COHEN:



Q The reason that particular e-mail caught our eye was



that several witnesses interviewed by our committee have



described TNA as a refuge for WWE’s failed drug users and as



a safe haven for drug users. Are you concerned about this



image?



A I don’t think it is a correct image at all. I



absolutely don’t think it is. We have a lot of people who



have past histories. There was a USA Today article in ’94.



And you know there are several of our guys interviewed for



that that we offered up, come down, come see our show, come



down and talk to these people. And they all had past



histories with drug abuse and prescription medicine abuse.



Q Does image concern you?



A Image concerns me tremendously. I mean, we are -­we



work very, very hard to be a different kind of wrestling



company, to treat our wrestlers differently, to provide them



a different lifestyle, to not put them on the road where



they beat and batter their bodies so much that they have no



37



option but to turn to pain medicine. It is a huge problem.



And we treat them with respect, which they’ve never gotten



before. But we also hold them accountable. And it is not a



safe haven. These guys are on a very short leash as far as



it being a family friendly show what they can do in the ring



and the image and perception of how they are. If they get



into any kind of an altercation — let’s just say boys



having fun in a bar fight, it doesn’t matter — it may not



be on our clock and they may work for a lot of other people,



but it will not be tolerated in our company.



Q So have you had instances where you’ve let wrestlers



go because of those kind of indiscretions?



A Absolutely. Absolutely. Suspended, let off shows



which means without pay. That is a form of suspension as



well for a period of time and termination. And we’ve also



had several wrestlers who we have allowed to go to rehab and



have told them that their places were safe afterwards. But



again most of this would be, you know, pain medication and



some of them — yeah, it is mostly pain medication or



alcohol.



Q ,I was going to ask, have there been any specific



cases where you’ve suspended or let wrestlers go because of



issues with regard to steroids or performance enhancing



drugs?



A No.



38



Mr. Cohen. I think that is the end on this set.



Anybody else want to



BY MR. BUFFONE:



Q You seem to be saying that you want to create a



place that really says you don’t you want a better kind



of wrestler and a better kind of talent who really respects



the rules and respects the laws and doesn’t get in trouble.



How does hiring Pacman Jones who was suspended by the NFL



fit into that image?



A Well, you know, in this country, I believe you’re



innocent until proven guilty. And the last I checked, you



know, most all of his incidents, several of them have been



cleared during his tenure with us and even some since then.



You know, he was available and we found a good program that



was fun for him. And we. really felt after talking to him at



length, talking to his attorneys, talking to his agent and



everything that we asked all those questions in advance



and were told, you know, this is an issue that should be



cleared up in the next period of time and, you know, if you



want to use him, you can for that reason.



BY MR. COHEN:



Q One of your other big stars, Kurt Angle, has also



been he is certainly suspected — he has been — media



reports have indicated he is a suspected drug user at the



very least.



39



A He has been very vocal about



Q And can you tell us when you decided to hire him,



was you have spoken about your concern about TNA’s image



and you’re concerned about being a family friendly



organization and presenting a family friendly show. What



was your thinking with regard to bringing in Mr. Angle and



how it would affect that image?



A Kurt has been very vocal in the media about his



addiction to pain medicine. And he — he was also very



vocal about his inability to be given time off to rehab.



And against the advice of doctors, he quit cold turkey.



Prior to a match, I believe, or I believe prior to right



after a big important match he had been off drugs for a



period of time, very, very unhappy with his situation. And



I hate speaking for somebody, but —



Q I asked.



A You did ask me. But he is the one to probably ask



even more so. But he had been cleared for a long period of



time. He — we met with his attorney and his agents. He



was under the care of a three legitimate doctors in the



Pittsburgh area, all of which are highly reputable. One for



preventative medicine, one for his broken neck and the other



just general — his general medicine and welfare I guess it



is. And, you know, we felt like he had, you know — he was



in a completely different place.



40



Q Okay.



A And he has been very vocal since about the kind of



life he led there. But he is a different kind of person. I



mean, he takes responsibility. Just because he worked 300



days a year, he doesn’t blame the company, which I don’t



believe he should because he chose to take the paycheck, you



know. And but he has been very vocal about getting



hooked on the medicine, his inability to rehab until he



finally had to do what he —



Q Okay. Our next set is on TNA’s testing and drug



policies.



A Okay.



Q Your drug policy is laid out in your talent policies



and procedures handbook. We’ll mark this Exhibit 2.



[Carter Exhibit No. 2



was marked for identification.]



BY MR. COHEN:



Q I’m providing you with a copy. When was this policy



developed?



A WWE came out with a general wellness policy maybe



March 1st, maybe the last day in February of 2006 if my



memory is right. And Andy forwarded it to me within a day.



And we reviewed it and we decided that even though we were



just running the three shows a day and these guys didn’t



work for us full-time, actually worked for everybody else



41



for a majority of the time, we needed to, you know, put



together a formal document for them that laid out the dos



and don’ts of what they had been told in bits and pieces.



So we created this talent handbook of which a drug policy is



included in that.



Q The next exhibit — I’m going to present you with a



March 12, 2006 e-mail from Kevin Day to you.



A Uh-huh.



[Carter Exhibit No. 3



was marked for identification.]



BY MR. COHEN:



Q This e-mail is from Kevin Day to you, Andy Barton -­A



Jeff Jarrett.



Q Jeff Jarrett and Steve Campbell, responding to the



February 28th e-mail from Andy Barton. This we will mark as



exhibit 3?



A So then they came out with that policy on February



27th. I was close.



Q In discussing the WW wellness policy, Mr. Day states



I can like the substance of it, provided we apply our own



discipline levels to it, it seems like a good policy to it.



It seems like a good policy. Are you familiar with the WW



policy that Mr. Day liked?



A Correct.



Q The first draft of the policy presented to the



committee — presented to our committee — among the



documents presented to our committee, the first draft of the



policy was created on March 3rd, three days after



Mr. Barton’s original e-mail. When you initially drafted



your wellness — your talent policy, did you use that WW



wellness policy as a guide?



A I think they looked at several different



organizations’ drug testing policies and made the



determination — I think, there was conversations back and



forth about. You know, with us only working with these guys



3 days a month, what we can and cannot request of them. And



it was determined that we wanted to create a full policy but



we did not list out all the specific drugs. It was more



just prescription drugs. We did not list every prescription



drug made and things such as that. But it does, I think -­you



know, it covers the basics of it.



Q Okay. With regard to your final policy — and I



apologize if I’m jumping around a little bit.



A That’s okay.



Q I’ll probably — one key difference between the



final policy and WWE’s current policies, is that WWE’s



policies include provisions for support — for drug testing



for steroids while TNA’s appear not to. Why is this the



case? Why did you finally not to decide to include testing



for steroids?



43



A Well, it is a prescription drug. I mean, that would



be considered to mean a legal prescription drug.



Q So your understanding is that your current policy



includes



A Absolutely.



Q Specific provisions that would allow testing for



steroids?



A Absolutely. For anyone to use prescription drugs



illegally.



Q What was the specific rationale again for -­A



Not listing it out?



Q It seems like a curious decision to me. If you



wanted it to be clear to your wrestlers that they were



included why not list them out?



A I just felt like — I think everybody at the time



felt like for a company of our size and where we were at and



how many days a week these people were working for us, this



was as comprehensive and included every single thing, the



WWE’s did without specifically spelling it out.



Q Did you, at any point, spell out to your wrestlers



that steroids were covered under that policy?



A Absolutely. We went through this policy with them



when they received the’handbooks and, you know, everybody



was told — we walked through it, we walked through every



one of these steps. And every wrestler that comes and signs



44



a contract with us gets this in advance and I believe has to



sign it, that they reviewed it with us.



Q Okay. And did you when you gave them that



policy, did you indicate there would definitely be tests at



some point?



A At this point it was to reserve the right and we’ll



test if there was suspicion.



Q Okay.



A And since this has been enacted, we have had several



suspensions and terminations and those that have been sent



to rehab for drinking or things such as that. But no



testing was quite honestly necessary because it was obvious.



Q Okay. So .you’ve not conducted any tests under that



current policy?



A No.



Q Okay. All right. I’m going to give you a March 24,



2006 draft of the policy. We’ll mark that Exhibit 4.



[Carter Exhibit No. 4



was marked for identification.]



BY MR. COHEN:



Q This draft — stipulation 5 of this draft, which



is the third page — that stipulates that TNA reserves the



right to drug test.



A Right.



Q This — as we’ve walked through the chronology of



45



drafts we’ve been given, this is the first mention of drug



testing in any of the drafts.



A This one right here?



Q Uh-huh. This is the March 23rd draft. Can you -­again,



I apologize. This is a little bit specific, but the



initial e-mail that began your — the discussion your



talent policy came on February 28th. There were several



drafts in between that did not include reference to drug



testing of any kind. The reference to drug testing



includes finally, appears in the March 23rd draft. Can



you walk us through the discussions that ensued between



February 28th and the final decision to include, I guess,



the decisions not to include drug testing provisions in the



initial drafts and then the final decision that led to the



appearance of the right to drug test in this March 23rd



draft?



A I don’t think it was a decision not to drug test at



first. We never sat down and said this is our drug policy,



now let’s put it in place. We throughout this entire



policy, the entire talent handbook, we just started off with



a first draft and then we reviewed it and brought more



people in to look at it and started pulling more information



as we were doing it.



Considering how understaffed our company was at the



time for us to have even turned something around like this



46



was in pretty quick order and showed me that this was a



priority for our company on a very fast track. So I think



what we did is we just began to pull more policies in,



people started talking and we started adding. It was not a



conscious decision, oh, let’s leave it out at first, no,



let’s do it and there were no discussions like that had.



Q Were there any discussions before that was included



of the potential costs of drug testing or if this — the



cost of including that provision in the draft?



A It was in this — in the discussing of it?



Q As you discussed the draft, as you discussed how the



policies would turn out, was there discussions that it is



going to cost us money to drug test, it may end up with -­are



we — we’d have to set up a testing program. We’d have



to do X, Y and Z. Were there those kind of economic



discussions that were going on about that particular



provision or provisions that were not included in drafts for



the final version?



A There have been discussion of every time we have had



to testing or physicals or things such as that, there has



always been financial discussions. Quite honestly up until,



you know, this year, we have been operating at a significant



loss. And so I’m sure that there were people talking about



how much anything costs. We talked about the cost of paper.



I mean, it was that kind of an existence for a company.



Mr. Cohen. Any other questions about the initial



development of TNA policies and procedures?



Mr. Buffone. Just to clarify.



BY MR. BUFFONE:



Q Was it your understanding that testing from the



initial discussions when you first heard the WWE wellness



policy that the testing always was on the table?



A For us? Oh, absolutely. I think we decided from



the beginning we needed a policy that allows us to randomly



test people when we want and that protects us when we ask



these guys who don’t work for us full time that we want to



do this and that they have to agree to it in advance and



there are certain legal things that we need to make sure



that we cover on both sides.



BY MR. COHEN:



Q All right. The next document I’m going to provide



you with is an e-mail dated May 31, 2006.



A Uh-huh.



Q This will be Exhibit 5.



[Carter Exhibit No. 5



was marked for identification.]



BY MR. COHEN:



Q This is now after the final version of the drug



policies that has gone into effect. This May 31, 2006



e-mail is from Steve Campbell to you regarding blood and



47



48



drug tests — blood and drug testing. The drug test



includes according to this e-mail marijuana, cocaine, PCP,



amphetamines and barbiturates. Did this drug testing occur?



A That drug testing did not. At this time, we were, I



believe, complying with an OSHA request from the State of



Florida if I’m — I don’t know if that — but that is my



memory from this. And we did the testing that they



requested. But again, we were not — had not made the



decision to do, you know, talentwide testing. It was based



upon reason. And — so we were complying with an OSHA, I



believe it was request.



Q So that was specific compliance testing?



A Specific compliance, correct, for the State of



Florida, I believe. That’s who did it. But it was for our



shows in Orlando.



49



RPTS DEAN



DCMN MAGMER



[2:05 p.m.]



Q The final version of the drug policy -­A



Do I have that?



Q Yes, that is Exhibit



A 0011?



Q Double 09?



A Okay.



Q The drug policy says TNA reserves the right to



conduct random drug tests and other tests in accordance with



government requirements.



A Correct.



Q Can you walk me through your understanding of the



meaning of that final provision “in accordance with



government requirements”?



A When you tour, there is athletic commissions in each



State and each State has from pretty much no provisions



whatsoever to pretty strict provisions of needing full



physicals, blood work and things such as that. So those are



State government requirements, and so we wanted to make sure



that they knew that we could be asking them at any given



time to provide HIV testing and other things that would be



required of us to operate and do business.



Q It is not clear from this that you reserve the right



50



to conduct random drug tests outside of government



requirements. Was that made clear to the wrestlers?



A I think it is two totally different deals. One is



to conduct random drug tests and then — and other tests in



accordance with government requirements.



Q The other question is — we’re back on this



particular document.



A Which document?



Q The same one.



A Okay.



Q Actually, let’s go back to the testing in the May



31st e-mail. This was testing — again, per your initial



previous request, this was testing that was done to meet



government requirements. Were all your — in this set of



testing, were all your — was all your talent tested?



A Yes, yes, sir. And looking at the dates on this



Q Uh-huh.



A — the OSHA request probably came up -­Q



Uh-huh.



A between this date and this, and it was — counsel



provided to us that we probably let them know in advance



that they would have do that. That looks like the timing of



that, and that’s why that was added as well.



Q Okay. This — the final version of this policy,



provision 6 of this, this refers to the Florida Department



51



of Health Bureau of Epidemiology’s request.



A Uh-huh.



Q Is that the — was that the impetus for those May



31st tests?



A Yes, uh-huh.



Q Prior to your — when did you become aware of those



requirements?



A At this point, that was the first time.



Q And prior to becoming aware of those requirements



and setting up the tests, the June 19th tests, were there



any plans — did TNA have any plans to conduct drug testing



under this drug policy?



A I think it says we have the right to conduct random



drug tests. I believe if I go back and read it, it does say



that if there is any suspicion then we would random drug



test. Is that the question?



Q I’m asking were there any plans to conduct the



tests?



A There had not been any suspicions; and, like I said



before, several times when there were suspicions we talked



with the talent and they were dealt with, whether it be



suspended without pay and then termination.



Q Is it your understanding that these provisions allow



you only to conduct testing if there’s suspicion?



A No, this says we can conduct random drug tests; and



52



that could mean the entire roster or it could mean with



suspicion.



Q Okay. And to clarify, though, there had not been



any plans prior to your becoming aware of —



A To test the entire roster, not at this point.



Q The Florida Department of Health —



A Not back in



Q There were no plans at that time?



A Correct.



BY MR BUFFONE:



Q Is it your understanding or recollection that you



learned of the Florida compliance after you learned of the



wellness policy; do you remember?



A I don’t know. The request did not come in to me. I



just remember hearing about it in that April, May. I would



assume that came in after. That may have been a reaction to



the WWE wellness policy coming out. I believe their



substance policy came out as a reaction to the Eddie



Guerrero death. So I believe when Eddie Guerrero died, I



believe they instituted the wellness policy. I think that



was the driving force behind that.



Q Uh-huh.



A And that may have also been the driving force in us



being requested of this information as well.



Q Okay.



53



A But I don’t have that information specifically why



they requested that and when.



Mr. Buffone. All right.



BY MR COHEN:



Q Since that May of — now moving ahead a little bit



with the policy and where we stand now, have there been any



changes to TNA’s policies and procedures concerning drug use



since May of 2006?



A Yes. Actually, earlier this year, probably second



quarter, we started talking about the desire to do a more



proactive test, not because we felt that there was reason or



doubt but because we felt like, in our desire to distinguish



our company, for us to say certain things it needed to be -­I



needed to be able to walk into a congressional meeting and



say, hey, guys, here’s exactly what you’re looking for. You



don’t have to take my word. For us to come out there and do



some of the proactive ways in which we wanted to position



our company.



We were using the words, “the new face of professional



wrestling”. Quite honestly, our biggest challenge in



staying in business is fighting the perception of wrestling.



It’s a dirty word out there and for good reason. We have



had to go in there and try to convince people we will be



different to work with. You are working with a different



kind of people, organization. So that has been a big



54



challenge for us. So that was one of the reasons we felt



like earlier this year we were going to do that.



We started talking about it in executive meetings. At



first, it was discussed on starting to put that together and



wanting to institute something by the summer, and we started



talking about it. And then the Chris Benoit tragedy



happened, and we had already begun conversations prior to



that



Q To get a sense



A probably in the executive meetings.



There’s four people who meet in the executive meeting.



It’s Jeff Jarrett, myself, Dean Broadhead and Andy Barton.



That’s a meeting that we would have once every 2 weeks



depending upon schedules and things such as that just to



talk about every issue out there. We would talk about



talent issues, anything, any kind of staff meeting type of



executive decision.



We started talking about it — again, Andy and I



brought this up and just felt like — you know what?



Because I run more of the marketing side of the company



where I was wanting to go and really hit this new face



professional wrestling and try to be more aggressive with



letting people know we are different, let’s make sure we



have empirical proof to back that up. Let’s — we’re in a



position where we can do it, and we can do it on an ongoing



55



basis.



And so we started talking about that in probably



April — March, April, and then started really looking at



additional documents in May of what it would constitute and



then got very, very aggressive with it in the summer. But



our plans were all along from the September time period what



we had talked about from the beginning.



Mr. Buffone. Just to clarify, that’s pre the Benoit



death?



Ms. Carter. Uh-huh. We had not set that date, but we



wanted to do it before the end of the summer.



Mr. Cohen. I’m going to move to a July 11th e-mail



from Dean Broadhead to Guy Blake. I’m going to mark that



Exhibit 6.



[Carter Exhibit No. 6



was marked for identification.]



BY MR. COHEN:



Q In that e-mail, Mr. Broadhead had just announced to



TNA talent that TNA will begin drug testing on September



1st.



A Urn-hum.



Q Was that announcement ever made?



A Yes, it was.



Q When and how?



A Through Terry Taylor, our director of talent



56



relations. I don’t remember the exact date, but it was



probably at one of the tapings shortly thereafter. We only



tape every 2 weeks, so it would have been on one of the



subsequent tapings after that.



Q And how was that — in what way did he announce that



those tests would be conducted?



A He communicated verbally with them.



Q And there was no paper, no materials, no documents?



A No. Again, at this time we, you know, were not



prepared, you know, to have a congressional investigation,



but we were trying to do the right thing. And so he



communicated with them —



Q Okay.



A — verbally.



Q Did he indicate specifically that testing would be



conducted on September 1st or what — in what way did he



inform the talent that the tests would be conducted?



A Dean didn’t know the pro — he probably — September



1st I don’t even believe we were taping. That’s why we



chose September 10th, because it was a taping date where we



would have already had to fly in our guys live allover



the country. So, obviously, for an expense reason we wanted



to do it while they were already there. So we just knew



that we wanted to do it by September, and so that’s why he



had put that date there.



57



Q Okay. So at that point in August of ’07 Mr. Taylor



indicated to the TNA talent that TNA would be conducting



steroid tests in particular?



A Everything, absolutely, steroids, illegal drugs.



Q Your intention was to conduct drug tests for both



steroids and illegal drugs?



A Yes.



Q And who had you been contracted with?



A I believe you have that e-mail, again, I believe it



was set up through our doctor, I think Centra Care or — in



Florida.



Mr. Cohen. Why don’t we introduce — we’ve got -­there



are two e-mails. One is dated August 8th, 2007 — is



this August 8th or August 9th? One is dated August 15th,



2007. Those are Exhibits 7 and 8.



[Carter Exhibits No. 7 and 8



Were marked for identification.]



BY MR. COHEN:



Q At the first page of the August 9th e-mail, it looks



like it was forwarded, an e-mail from August 8th from Terry



Taylor to Gregg Pond.



A Correct. I would assume he is with the Florida



hospital. Strategic account manager who works with



corporate groups so probably not individual patients.



Q The August 8th e-mail requests testing on ~eptember



58



10th, 2007, for steroids, cocaine, opiates and amphetamines?



A Uh-huh.



Q Can you describe the testing that was scheduled, and



it indicates it was scheduled for September 10th?



A What had been scheduled, I believe, is what they



call a five-panel drug test, and I don’t know what all these



are, cocaine, cannabinoids, opiates, amphetamines, PCP and



then steroids.



Q How is this testing scheduled? Was your talent



given notification that they would be tested on September



10th?



A I’m don’t know if they were told exactly what date



it would be, but they were told that we would begin drug



testing not just with cause but the entire talent roster.



Q Okay. What did you plan do with these test results?



A Act upon them. Hopefully, they would show that



everybody was clean, but if there was a problem we would



have taken care of it.



Q In what way?



A It just depends on what came back. If it was any of



these serious problems, then I mean it would be suspension



or termination.



Q And had you discussed among yourselves what — how



the policy would work?



A As far as what the results would be?



59



Q As far as what actions you would take depending upon



what the results showed?



A Absolutely. There would be an automatic suspension,



and then determination would be made as to whether there



would be termination as well.



Q Did you have in mind different — give an example of



steroids. How long a suspension did you have in mind for



talent who tested positive for steroids?



A Well, throughout the summer we had been talking



about what needs to — actually, we were also talking about



an administrator and things such as that that will be



providing us a lot of that information to help us put this



in place.



Q Uh-huh.



A So we were moving forward on this quickly because we



knew we wanted to do it.



Q Right.



A And 3 months was the first amount of time, I believe



from memory, that was thrown out for that, but it depended.



If it was prescribed by a doctor, you know what I’m saying,



or was it in a large amount nonprescribed by a doctor, and



we were told we would need to find out all of that



information based upon results of tests.



Q Okay.



A That it wasn’t just as simple as getting a test



60



result back.



Q Was it your intention — to the extent there were



suspensions, was it your intention to make those suspensions



public?



know.



A Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You have to. People



I mean, I held a talent meeting with my talent in



closed doors and kicked everybody out on Monday, and 1 hour



later it was out on the Internet. So I choose to do things



proactively and publicly versus let somebody else be in



control of what’s said about us.



Q Were there provisions for therapeutic use, for



example, if there were a doctor’s prescription?



A Absolutely, and we laid that out because we knew of



specific guys in our current roster that were under a



doctor’s care for different situations



problems with massive uses of steroids



past injuries,



for some of our



old guys who are in their mid 40s at this point and things



such as that. We were aware of that. We were told if they



were under doctors’ care for legitimate reasons that that



would be an exemption.



Q You laid that out -~



A In this original drug policy. It says it is not a



violation of TNA policy for an independent contractor to use



medications prescribed by a licensed and treating physician



61



for a legitimate medical purpose, but we had to know about



that.



Q Who is responsible for conducting reviews under that



provision?



A Meaning their own doctors?



Q Who makes the decision that it was a legitimate



doctor for a legitimate medical purpose?



A Well, Terry will talk to the talent and find out who



their doctors are and what prescriptions they are taking.



Q And Terry, to my understanding, has no medical



background himself?



A No, he does not, obviously.



BY MR BUFFONE:



Q You said you mentioned a couple of times we were



told we needed to do this. Who was the, person telling you



about what you needed in the testing policy? Or what type



of people were consulting? Were you talking with lawyers



or



A No, what I was just referring to was an attorney



telling us, well, you cannot not allow somebody to have



you know, you can’t — can’t suspend somebody for using



something if they are under or being treated by an



appropriate doctor for a legitimate condition. So when that



test comes back, you have to make sure that they know that



that is the situation.



62



Q Was this an attorney who has experience and



background in testing policies?



A No, but I believe he did review several policies and



I’m of the understanding that he contacted some people and



talked about different things.



Q And have you discussed this test or testing in



January with any testing policy experts or people who do



have background in testing policies?



A Well, we’re putting an entire new drug policy in



place. It will be — I don’t know if it will be reflective



of WWE’s, but it will be much more thorough, comprehensive,



and that will be done and have to be done, obviously, by the



time that we do the testing.



Q Are you relying on experts to put that policy in



place?



A We’ve actually contacted a couple of people, one in



particular — oh, it’s the clean sports dot org; You all



probably know the company.



Ms. Despres. Drug Free Sport?



Ms. Carter. Drug Free Sport, uh-huh.



We’ve had at least a couple of conversations with them.



And that’s one thing that I’ll ask Andy to continue to



conduct, you know, to look at. Because we have to make a



decision on an administrator and things such as that. That



is who I believe it was.



63



Who else do they represent, do you know?



Ms. Despres. I don’t. I mean, their name comes up all



the time in everything, but



Mr. Cohen. I think they work pretty much with high



schools.



Ms. Carter. They are pretty stringent.



Ms. Despres. I feel like they are pretty involved in



high school as well.



BY MR. COHEN:



Q The second one, Exhibit 8, the August 15th e-mail



that cancels the request for testing and states, “We are



complying with a congressional request,” some more



background on why you decided to cancel those tests?



A Well, I think again we did not know, quite honestly,



what this process would entail, if we would be given our



mandated new rules, regulations, et cetera, and wanted to be



sure and comply. And, like I said, when we did not hear



back from you after this original letter back in I don’t



know when it was originally sent to us, but when we did not



hear back for a period of time, we went ahead and decided to



go ahead and put this on the books regardless if it was



acceptable or not by this committee.



Q Okay.



A At least to get the ball rolling on our part. We



didn’t want to delay it anymore.



64



Q Okay. The congressional request referenced in the



e-mail, do you know who that request was from?



A Yes, sir, actually, we received two.



Q Correct.



A One from Committee on Oversight and Government



Reform, and I believe I have the other one — I may not.



Do you remember?



Mr. Hundley. Uh-huh.



Ms. Carter. Can I ask him?



Mr. Hundley. Commerce.



Ms. Carter. Commerce.



Very similar structured letter -­Mr.



Cohen. Yes.



Ms. Carter. Almost to the word.



Mr. Cohen. All right. We’re going to try to get



ourselves caught up to date. The next exhibit we will call



Exhibit 10 — 9.



Before we walk on to this, let me just ask if anyone



else has questions on anything up from the period from March



of ’07 — when the policy was put into place up through the



congressional request, any questions about what went on in



this time period.



BY MS. DESPRES:



Q I have one question about this policy that you



actually read: It is a violation of our policy for anyone



65



to use prescription drugs illegally. It is not a violation



for an independent contractor prescribed by a licensed and



treating physician.



Then it goes on to say, but the independent contractor



should notify his or her supervisor if the prescribed



medication will affect the independent contractor’s ability



to perform his or her job.



In developing that part of the policy, did you envision



that steroid use, legitimate or let’s say prescribed



steroid use would affect the independent contractor’s



ability to perform his or her job?



A Not if the doctor — that wouldn’t be my decision or



anybody in my company’s, but not if their doctor did not



think it would have any kind of symptoms or — what’s the



word I’m looking for? If by taking any kind of medication



it would cause slurring or —



Q Okay.



A — anything that would potentially injure — that



would potentially injure that talent or put that talent in



harm’s way or another person.



Q So there is no expectation that if the talent is



using steroids that have been prescribed that they have an



obligation under this policy to inform their supervisor of



that?



A We do know of multiple talent that we do have.



66



Q So talent — are they required to tell you if they



are taking —



A They are not required to. It doesn’t affect that,



but we are aware in multiple situations.



Q And how are you aware?



A Because, again, they tell us. We know when they



have certain injuries and how they are treating them — old



injuries, neck injuries and things such as that so —



Q I’m actually thinking of the steroid use. Do you



know about talent who are currently using steroids



prescribed by doctors?



A I know of one talent specific -­Q



Okay.



A — and I know of another one that is a form of



regeneration, I believe it is.



Q Uh-huh.



A So that is a form of steroid, but it is not —



Q But they are not required under the policy, — under



the existing policy, they are not required to notify you?



A Under this existing policy, if it does not affect



their work, they are not required to tell us.



BY MR BUFFONE:



Q Do you know what steroids they are using, by any



chance?



A I don’t know it off the top of my head.



67



Q You talk about wrestlers who have been suspended,



wrestlers who have been let go, and wrestlers who have been



sent to rehab because of drug and other problems. How are



they informed? How does that process work?



A Well, most of these guys don’t have an agent,



lawyer, attorney or anybody who you would send an official



letter to. In the case where they have — we have one — I



think it is a document that you have that the names are



blanked out. It is a Hollywood person who has an agent,



attorney so we were able to send them something.



In the past, if it is just the person and they don’t



have representation, we called them up and told them.



Q So it is all done through phone calls? There are no



letters?



A No, that will not happen anymore. Everything will



be highly documented.



Q So for all the other times you sent people to



rehab when you say you “sent” people, do you pay for the



rehab or



A It just depends. Sometimes they have had insurance



that has covered a rehab. We offered to continue to pay



them even though they are not on the show. That’s usually



their biggest concern, is I can’t go without money while I



do that. So that’s why these people don’t go. They are in



fear of loss of their job, which is a reality in other



68



places, and a fear of loss of payment, which is a reality.



So we have tried to remove those two elements to let them



know it’s okay. If something does happen and you relapse,



you need to go get help.



Q So beyond the two letters of this committee there is



no documentation at all that you have suspended wrestlers,



let wrestlers go, sent wrestlers to rehab?



A It would be documented in the Internet because



everything gets out, I would assume, somewhere along the



line. But, no, we try to keep that extremely confidential.



There is one instance in particular where I was the



only person talking — I did not tell a single other person



because of their family situation and things such as that to



help them.



EXAMINATION



BY MR CHANCE:



Q In the beginning, it wasn’t necessarily ill will in



terms of drug testing



A III will?



Q It was more or less limited by resources, in talking



about paper and things like that, but now that you have



these attractions and positive cash flow has that opened up



your options in terms of creating this more confidence in



the drug policy?



A It helps tremendously, obviously. But I think we



69



felt like back then we truly were a television production



company, filming three times a week, putting on a wrestling



show. And we felt like by developing a policy very, very



quickly that no other wrestling organization but the WWE



had, no other television production company had, they don’t



test their people, movie studios are not testing people who



have the chiseled bodies who you know there is a good chance



they may not be real as well. We felt like that was being



proactive in our position.



At that point, we may have been 1 or 2, maybe 2.5



percent of WWE’s revenues and maybe spending four or five or



six, seven times that just to literally pay our guys and



stay alive. So at the time we really felt proud of this



document and felt like it was something that no other



wrestling company, even those that were truly touring and



truly working their guys a lot more than ours were doing,



and we were trying to take a stand at that point.



But when we knew we were going to be signing or hoped



to sign in October a new 2-hour deal, we felt like the



resources would be there. That’s why we decided in the



summer we can bring in a medical doctor to do preventative



stuff and ask him fly him in and ask him to give us his



entire day, which we know would be in the thousands of



dollars for proactive things. We can do full screenings



instead of random screenings to back up what we wanted to



do, and that was the plan.



BY MR. COHEN:



Q Why don’t you get us caught up to date now. Tell us



what your plans are and what your specific time frames are



for developing the testing program and how the program will



be run and what the penalties will be.



A We are still in development of that program. It has



got to be right. It really does. We have got to make



sure — and that’s why you go through drafts of things, and



this silly little talent policies and procedures probably



went — without the drug part of it probably went through 30



revisions to make sure that we hadn’t left anything out. I



will charge people with making sure that this is a very



tight, proactive document with everything spelled out.



Q When do you intend to put this into effect?



A It has to be in place by the time we do the testing,



which is the January time frame.



Q So you will do your testing in January?



A Uh-huh.



Q The letter to the committee, the August 30th, 2007,



letter to the committee, that also mentions TNA planning to



provide seminar sessions to educate TNA talent and their



families about the use of steroids and other drugs?



A Correct.



Q Have those seminars taken plaGe?



A Not yet.



Q When will they take place?



A We need to schedule them. We have talked about it.



We have talked about — we have been in discussion with a



doctor who we would like to bring in who has agreed to come



in, give us a full day at his practice and conduct such



conversations. So we are hoping within the next couple of



months.



[Carter Exhibit No. 9



was marked for identification.]



BY MR. COHEN:



Q When did you sign the contract?



A October 4th, for the 2-hour show.



Q If you could, I think it would be helpful to maybe



get back to us with some of the specifics on who you’ve -­you’ve



mentioned the National Center for Drug Free Sport.



A Uh-huh.



Q If you could provide us with a list of the



individuals with whom you consulted in preparing a policy



A Okay.



Q I think that would be helpful to us.



A We have or will consult with, right?



Q Yes. Your plans are to begin testing in January.



That’s coming up pretty quick. We’re at December 5th now?



Mr. Cacheris. Sixth.



72



Ms. Carter. We have been discussing this and looking



at policies since May.



BY MR. COHEN:



Q Is there a new draft of a policy in place yet?



A Not anything in writing, no. We just talked about



it, except for the things we listed out and the documents,



the things we wanted to include. It will take this existing



drug policy and it will list out every specific thing on



there, which is, you know much like WWE’s.



Q Have you begun discussing with laboratories how they



would be conducting the testing?



A I would assume so, since we already had one



scheduled for September 10th. So since that had already



been scheduled, I would assume they had talked about it. I



did not actually set that up, so I would not know at any



level exactly the details of how that was done.



Q Okay.



A But it was going to be done in Orlando when



everybody was present at one time.



Q I would ask that over the next several weeks that,



as you begin to move towards this January testing date, that



you keep the committee abreast of your plans on a fairly



detailed basis.



A Absolutely.



Q You didn’t need to call us every hour, but to the



73



extent that you hit benchmarks -­A



Sure.



Q That when you have a draft policy in place, if you



could send us that policy.



A Absolutely.



Q When you have contracted with someone to run the



program or a lab to conduct the testing, if you could let us



know about that.



A Right.



Q And if you’ve got — when you inform your talent



when testing will begin, that’s another benchmark that I



think we’d like to be informed of. And then when the first



tests are actually conducted, we would appreciate knowing



about that.



A Absolutely. What we will do is, obviously, we will



put everything in writing. And in the past we haven’t had



the necessary need to present reporting to outside people.



It was more a matter of making sure it was done. But it’s



important to me personally, it’s important to my company



that — you talk about we are a different kind of company.



Well, how can you be if — for you to even throw the word



out that we’re a safe haven is offensive, and we need to



make sure that perceptions of people on the outside and



those not with some kind of an agenda who might be talking



about us who have or want to work with us or something along



74



those lines — so it is important that we now have the



resources.



More than anything else, we are now going to start



touring, and w~ have that obligation to do so. We were



trying to give ourselves that obligation, even though we



were with them three times a month.



There are some serious issues in wrestling way beyond



steroids, you know, based upon the number of days these guys



work, pain pills, what’s causing these guys to die. You



know, all of those, you know, would be great if we can begin



working together to change that image, that’s a positive for



us.



Q I’ve asked this question generally, so I apologize



if I’m being a bit redundant —



A Then I’m not answering it properly, obviously.



Q No, I may not have asked the question correctly. I



asked for a specific timeframe about the policy itself.



Again, I think through the fact that if you’re going to



start testing in January, time must be running pretty short.



I assume you feel you are under some sort of pressure to get



this written policy done. Do you have a specific deadline



that you have for the written policy?



A By the time we conduct the test, we need to be able



to hand it to them and let them know.



BY MR BUFFONE:



75



Q So are you okay with handing the talent the policy



the day of testing?



A Uh-huh. They will be told, obviously, in advance



that we are going to do that. We will tell them what we’ll



test for, but they don’t need — I mean, they can all think



they are being terminated, as far as I’m concerned, if they



fail it. The specifics of it are not as important to me as



it will be to them to know.



Q Some of the specifics of the test, have you



discussed what drugs you are going to test for?



A From my understanding, we are testing the panel 5 or



the 5 panel and steroids.



Q Have you been part of the — I’m guessing you’ve



been a part of the discussions of developing the policy?



A Correct.



Q But do you know of steroids — there are a lot of



different types of steroids. Has there been a discussion of



which steroids you will test for?



A It is my understanding that the steroids we’re



testing for there’s a variety of them, all of them. I



understand Marion Jones went for Olympic medals and still



had that happen. But from my understanding the steroid test



we’re taking is very thorough.



Q Okay.



A I think it is four times the cost of the panel 5



76



test, so I think it does cover multiple potentials”.



Q Have you discussed collection process of the sample,



how you are actually going to get the sample?



A From my understanding, the way we have done the ones



in the past is they would come to Terry Taylor and only be



discussed within a certain amount of people within the



company, that it is privileged information, but they will



provide it.



Q Do you recall any conversations about who will



collect the sample?



A This outside company in Florida. I believe it was



Centra Care is the name of the company.



Q Okay.



A They have a team who does this for large groups, not



individual patients who come in.



Q Okay.



A They would be collecting the sample, doing the



testing and then providing us the results.



Q You mentioned before that Terry Taylor would look at



the prescriptions. Have you had any discussions about



exactly the process of determining whether a prescription is



by a treating physician for a valid medical purpose?



A What will happen is by this date — what we were



going to do in September is anything that might potentially



show up in this testing they need to provide us their proof



77



from a doctor under his letterhead and things such as that



and we will check out the doctors to make sure, not us



personally, but have somebody who is a physician check out



the doctors.



Q You do expect a medical physician to check out the



prescriptions?



A Absolutely, absolutely. That’s not something that



Terry Taylor or any of us would ever try to handle.



BY MR. COHEN:



Q Do you have any plans to conduct blood testing to



test for human growth hormone?



A We have done blood testing. I don’t know we’ve



we’ve conducted thorough blood testing, but I don’t know if



it tested for that or not. I don’t believe so.



Mr. Hundley. I don’t think so.



EXAMINATION



BY MR BUFFONE:



Q Do you plan to do a lot of Internet pharmacy



prescriptions?



A I don’t know if that’s been discussed. I know that



out of all the listings of the Internet names that have come



out none of those are on our roster that have been active



with us have ever received any Internet drugs whatsoever,



not even drugs that would be from these pharmacies that



would be legitimate. Again, if that would have been, we



78



would have immediately had testing on that person and then



reacted based upon that test.



BY MR. COHEN:



Q Is there plans to conduct continuous testing or is



this a single testing?



A No, this will be ongoing. The word “proactive” is



where we will be. We want this to be — again, we’re not



the industry leader at all, but this is something we can be



an industry leader in. We have talked about having some of



our younger, healthy guys, our good-looking healthy guys do



PSAs about drug abuse and steroids that we could go to Spike



with and see if every network gets a certain amount of PSA



time, that if we provided something like that that that’s



something where we could take a strong leadership position



in. But we would want to make sure that we’ve got all the



documentation in writing to make sure that we don’t open



ourselves up for any questions.



Q Okay.



Do you have a budget figure in mind? It sounds like



you guys watch your budget pretty carefully.



A We can breathe right now, so it’s a lot different.



I’m pretty sure that it will be costly, but it is a cost



that we’re willing to and have the means now to be able to



spend on it. You know, it has to be completely



comprehensive, and I’m sure that we’ll find the right way to



79



do it.



Q Have you thought through — is there a budget figure



in mind?



A I think on an ongoing basis this is 200, $250 per



person. So you’re talking times 50 or 60 a couple times per



year, and then we will continue if there is a cause to



random drug test. I think now, based upon this hearing and



things such as that, even if we are aware somebody is doing



something, we will probably go to the extent of making sure.



Q Okay. You had mentioned the signature pharmacy



case, the 11 — there has been 11 wrestlers, there has been



any number of professional baseball, football players whose



names have come out in relation to that.



A Uh-huh.



Q Have you been contacted at all by the Albany



District Attorney’s office?



A No.



Q Regarding the signature pharmacy case?



A We’ve had no names on the list. Kurt Angle’s name



was on the list for something I believe in 2004, but that



has been — he didn’t join us until October, November, 2006.



Q Did you make any efforts to reach out to the



signature pharmacy I’m sorry, to the Albany District



Attorney regarding the signature pharmacy case?



A No. I don’t know what reason we would have had to



80



do so.



Mr. Cohen. I’m going to turn I think to an August



24th, 2007, e-mail from Matt Conway. It is a fax from Matt



Conway to Steve Campbell. We will call that Exhibit 10.



[Carter Exhibit No. 10



Was marked for identification.]



BY MR. COHEN:



Q Who is Matt Conway?



A Matt Conway works for Andy. And again when these



multiple lists of all of these wrestlers have come out they



have been listed anywhere from 60 to 120, I believe. And I



don’t know if there is a definitive list. They are not



all — there is a lot of multitude of reasons for death



besides drug on this list. But Andy had asked Matt to go



back and look at every single show line-up that we had, and



if anybody even made an appearance on our show who — if any



of those would have been on the most extensive of lists that



are public —



Q What was your response to this list? Was this



passed up to you?



A Oh, absolutely, absolutely.



Q What’s your response?



A Well, I went through and reviewed each talent and



what the individual situation was per person; and I would be



happy to lead you through that.



81



Q No, that’s okay. I’m just curious.



Have you spoken to your wrestlers? Are they



concerned about — there has been a lot of talk in the



media. To what extent has it filtered down to the wrestlers



themselves? Are they saying we have a real problem here



that we need to fix? Do they not want to talk about it?



What is the sense you get from your talent regarding the



concerns about the lifestyle —



A That’s a very good question.



Q — and what causes it?



A That’s a very good question. I think that you would



have a different answer for the guys in their 40s than you



would for the 20 somethings, the newer guys who are in the



business. The 40 somethings are those that some of them do



have baggage and who have experienced — I think the ’80s



was a time of great indulgence of drugs and of steroids.



Almost every talent to a fault was of the cartoonish



physique, and it was pretty much expected that that’s how



you got your place in the business at that time, so I think



it ran rampant.



A majority of people on that list, in the talents’



perception, were mid — very few really, really top names



like Eddie Guerrero or Chris Benoit, and they believed that



these guys didn’t make a lot of money.



If you think I’m paying guys 400 today now, that’s like



82



big potatoes compared to what they made back then, and they



worked 300 — crazy amount of days just to stay by. They



were all in a tremendous amount of physical pain, that there



was a cycle that is common that they are aware of, that is,



the pain medicines to be able to wrestle, the Somas, which I



believe are the muscle relaxers for afterwards and then the



Vicodin or something to be able to sleep. And it is that



trifecta when combined with alcohol or some other things



that have caused the majority of these deaths.



If you ask them almost to the personnel today is



absolutely night and day difference from what these guys who



are dying so young went through. And I have had — with our



new talent, it is just a breath of fresh air, because this



is foreign to them.



But the guys who are in their 40s who knew a lot of



these guys and actually worked with them, and many of them



had problems themselves, that’s what they say. And that’s



what they feel like the real travesty is, this schedule. It



creates a perpetual problem that puts these guys in a



tailspin. And then you combine it when their 15 minutes of



fame is over, they weren’t that famous to begin with, they



didn’t save any money, they are depressed as hell, and it is



a sad existence. It really is. It is tragic.



Q This is probably a question that probably affects



your younger wrestlers at TNA more than almost anyone. With



83



baseball, when we looked at the stars of Major League



Baseball you hear that the most — kind of the saddest



stories we heard were the players who didn’t quite make it,



who were clean and didn’t quite make it and got stuck in



triple A and looked and saw their peers and their colleagues



who they were clean and they were just as good or better



than, and they saw those ~eople cheat and they saw them get



a leg up.



In some ways, it seems like TNA — some of the TNA



wrestlers might be in the same position. They haven’t made



it to the big time yet. They want to get there, and they



see and have the sense that there’s people who aren’t as



good as them, aren’t as talented as them, who are making it



because they are cheating or they are using steroids. Have



you heard from your wrestlers or is there a concern for some



of them that there needs to be a policy so that they — to



protect the good guys?



A I think you just drew the perfect distinction that,



in baseball, steroids is a performance enhancer; in



wrestling, it has nothing to do with your performance and,



in fact, it inhibits your performance. Because you are so



bulked up you can’t get out there and move in the ring. So



then it becomes one of a purely physical desire on their



part.



Q Right.



84